Comments on We have to maintain a good working middle class »
March 14, 2009
phill_up @ 6:25 pm
Maybe someone can tell me why there is Animosity between the fitters and the plumbers in our local? It goes way back I’m sure. I know that not everyone in our union feels this way. Is this healthy rivalry or real hate? Every plumber I have ever met has been cool to me.
For me, any animosity has to do with plumbers doing my work.
Our local and the United Association have work separation. Pipefitters do pipefitters work and plumbers do plumbers work.
I Know lots of plumbers, consider many of them friends. Enjoy working together with them on projects… but when they do my work, they’re gonna hear about it.
Any plumber that wants to claim they are mechanically licensed and I can’t stop from doing fitters work…
well bubba, you belong to an organization that supports work separation. An organization that you took an oath to join, an oath that includes upholding the rules and bylaws that govern that organization…
rules and by laws which include work separation.
Anyway, like I said, I consider many plumbers to be my friend… it’s just this one thing that gets me wound up.
During my apprenticeship I sometimes got stuck helping plumbers. I carry the BTJ Pipefitter refrigeration card but I do HVAC service. There have been times when I would need help and I would get someone from the #124 sheet metal union most of the time. Other times it would be a fitter or plumber apprentice. I have seen plenty of “tinners” that carried a vacuum pump, torch, refrigerant etc. and actually did service calls. Most of this responsibility falls right back on the contractor. The contractors should be solely responsible for work designation. They are the ones sending one trade out to do another trades job and we turn on a brother or sister that pays dues to our union because he is doing what he is told.
Most of this responsibility falls right back on the contractor. The contractors should be solely responsible for work designation.
The contractors don’t care, they just want the work done.
This is where a steward, (a well trained steward that knows what they are doing) AND a hall that will back them are required. Plus a membership that cares about doing what is right.
I heard a story the other day about a tradesman or “pre-apprentice” helping a service journeyman repair some 3/4 pvc condensate traps on roof top package units. A BTJ called the steward about it and the kid got kicked off the roof and isn’t supposed to do any work again until he is in the apprenticeship program. I don’t really see a problem with it.
#1 it wasn’t a construction site.
#2 The kid has a State License.
#3 Its a good way to screen applicants before they are sponsored into the apprenticeship program.
#4 the kid is contributing to the local paying dues.
#5 It gives the contractor a slight break while competing with non union shops.
Can you see where it would benefit anyone to send an “area foreman” dragging a welder to build 12″ condensate drains out of pvc?
We don’t have pre-apprentices, that’s why it was a problem. What else does this ‘pre-apprentice’ work on?
We can’t pick and choose the rules we are going to follow… it’s either all or nothing. Not just the ones that are convenient for us or the contractors.
We as members have the UA constitution, local 344 bylaws and the collective bargaining agreement. We must adhere completely to what is in these documents or the whole system breaks down.
The contractors are governed by the collective bargaining agreement. If the contractors are not following the letter of contract, it is up to us to see to it that they do.
We can as individuals do this by being vocal, notifying our steward and/or notifying the hall.
Note: He is a tradesman. He pays dues. Several companies has a whole slew of them in the service dept. They have service vans and are running call. Like it or not our local 344 came up with this classification. Remember this classification is not for the construction dept. If this creates “animosity” This needs to be brought up and this classification needs to be deleted. Here we go again turning on our own because the contractor put him in this predicament. Can you find out exactly what this guy can and can not do?
If that ticks you off then this is really going to tick you off. I know of 2 guys that worked as a tradesman on big construction jobs for 90 days and they are both running jobs as Foreman plumbers without going through the apprenticeship. The sheet metal union Has a bunch of foremen that have bought their book.
The tradesman classification is supposed to be limited on the service work they can do by their selves… you would think helping repair pvc drains would be something they could do.
Off to the truck to get a copy of the collective bargaining agreement.
You’ve got one too, right?
Uhm… not that I am aware of.
If he was doing service I don’t see where it would be a problem. especially after I saw two of them “tradesman” in construction plumbing.
“This is where a steward, (a well trained steward that knows what they are doing) AND a hall that will back them are required. Plus a membership that cares about doing what is right.”
remember we cant pick and choose and make decisions from what we “think” is right. The kid paid over $250 to get in the union, then he pays union dues, he is legal with the state of Okla. and is working under a signatory agreement. I don’t see where the kid or contractor has broken any laws. I”m not sure but there maybe a crime committed against a persons rights. This is where I wonder if our local wouldn’t be better off if it split up into separate unions. The sheet metal union seems to be doing fine by themselves don’t they?
I know what bait and switch is… it would be interesting to see what the attorney general has to say about it as well.
Thats the problem with our local… still too many redneck republican hillbillies that are worried about someone else’s business. If our local don’t even understand what the classifications mean they shouldn’t be dishing them out. You have a company that is globally recognized as well as a signatory contract that is globally recognized and a hillbilly that doesn’t know what he is talking about and starts trouble. This my friend is the non-sense that keeps other shops from going union and we are stuck with the McSame BS. The “nobody better steal my work bygawd!” mentality stops us from advancing. Do you think that an organizer alone can bring in more shops? http://www.okpolicy.org/oklahoma-poverty-rate-down-still-not-perfect-oklahoman-august-26-2008
I agree, it looks bad. But to be fair, we’re only seeing one side of the story and I learned a long time ago, there’s actually three sides to every story… my side, your side and what really happened.
Soooo, without more info, I can’t condemn someone for doing what they thought was right, yet.
Comments on We have to maintain a good working middle class »
Maybe someone can tell me why there is Animosity between the fitters and the plumbers in our local? It goes way back I’m sure. I know that not everyone in our union feels this way. Is this healthy rivalry or real hate? Every plumber I have ever met has been cool to me.
For me, any animosity has to do with plumbers doing my work.
Our local and the United Association have work separation. Pipefitters do pipefitters work and plumbers do plumbers work.
I Know lots of plumbers, consider many of them friends. Enjoy working together with them on projects… but when they do my work, they’re gonna hear about it.
Any plumber that wants to claim they are mechanically licensed and I can’t stop from doing fitters work…
well bubba, you belong to an organization that supports work separation. An organization that you took an oath to join, an oath that includes upholding the rules and bylaws that govern that organization…
rules and by laws which include work separation.
Anyway, like I said, I consider many plumbers to be my friend… it’s just this one thing that gets me wound up.
During my apprenticeship I sometimes got stuck helping plumbers. I carry the BTJ Pipefitter refrigeration card but I do HVAC service. There have been times when I would need help and I would get someone from the #124 sheet metal union most of the time. Other times it would be a fitter or plumber apprentice. I have seen plenty of “tinners” that carried a vacuum pump, torch, refrigerant etc. and actually did service calls. Most of this responsibility falls right back on the contractor. The contractors should be solely responsible for work designation. They are the ones sending one trade out to do another trades job and we turn on a brother or sister that pays dues to our union because he is doing what he is told.
Thoughts?
The contractors don’t care, they just want the work done.
This is where a steward, (a well trained steward that knows what they are doing) AND a hall that will back them are required. Plus a membership that cares about doing what is right.
That is what is required.
I heard a story the other day about a tradesman or “pre-apprentice” helping a service journeyman repair some 3/4 pvc condensate traps on roof top package units. A BTJ called the steward about it and the kid got kicked off the roof and isn’t supposed to do any work again until he is in the apprenticeship program. I don’t really see a problem with it.
#1 it wasn’t a construction site.
#2 The kid has a State License.
#3 Its a good way to screen applicants before they are sponsored into the apprenticeship program.
#4 the kid is contributing to the local paying dues.
#5 It gives the contractor a slight break while competing with non union shops.
Can you see where it would benefit anyone to send an “area foreman” dragging a welder to build 12″ condensate drains out of pvc?
We don’t have pre-apprentices, that’s why it was a problem. What else does this ‘pre-apprentice’ work on?
We can’t pick and choose the rules we are going to follow… it’s either all or nothing. Not just the ones that are convenient for us or the contractors.
We as members have the UA constitution, local 344 bylaws and the collective bargaining agreement. We must adhere completely to what is in these documents or the whole system breaks down.
The contractors are governed by the collective bargaining agreement. If the contractors are not following the letter of contract, it is up to us to see to it that they do.
We can as individuals do this by being vocal, notifying our steward and/or notifying the hall.
Maybe we should go back to bashing repubs
Note: He is a tradesman. He pays dues. Several companies has a whole slew of them in the service dept. They have service vans and are running call. Like it or not our local 344 came up with this classification. Remember this classification is not for the construction dept. If this creates “animosity” This needs to be brought up and this classification needs to be deleted. Here we go again turning on our own because the contractor put him in this predicament. Can you find out exactly what this guy can and can not do?
If that ticks you off then this is really going to tick you off. I know of 2 guys that worked as a tradesman on big construction jobs for 90 days and they are both running jobs as Foreman plumbers without going through the apprenticeship. The sheet metal union Has a bunch of foremen that have bought their book.
The tradesman classification is supposed to be limited on the service work they can do by their selves… you would think helping repair pvc drains would be something they could do.
Off to the truck to get a copy of the collective bargaining agreement.
You’ve got one too, right?
Uhm… not that I am aware of.
If he was doing service I don’t see where it would be a problem. especially after I saw two of them “tradesman” in construction plumbing.
I guess ‘tradesmen’ are covered under this national service agreement I always hear about. Can’t find any mention in the local agreement.
“This is where a steward, (a well trained steward that knows what they are doing) AND a hall that will back them are required. Plus a membership that cares about doing what is right.”
remember we cant pick and choose and make decisions from what we “think” is right. The kid paid over $250 to get in the union, then he pays union dues, he is legal with the state of Okla. and is working under a signatory agreement. I don’t see where the kid or contractor has broken any laws. I”m not sure but there maybe a crime committed against a persons rights. This is where I wonder if our local wouldn’t be better off if it split up into separate unions. The sheet metal union seems to be doing fine by themselves don’t they?
I don’t know what a tradesman can and cannot do according to contract… it seems helping a serviceman repair condensate drains would be ok.
It would be interesting to find out ALL the details as to why he was shut down and the reasoning behind it.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/baitads-gd.htm
I know what bait and switch is… it would be interesting to see what the attorney general has to say about it as well.
Thats the problem with our local… still too many redneck republican hillbillies that are worried about someone else’s business. If our local don’t even understand what the classifications mean they shouldn’t be dishing them out. You have a company that is globally recognized as well as a signatory contract that is globally recognized and a hillbilly that doesn’t know what he is talking about and starts trouble. This my friend is the non-sense that keeps other shops from going union and we are stuck with the McSame BS. The “nobody better steal my work bygawd!” mentality stops us from advancing. Do you think that an organizer alone can bring in more shops?
http://www.okpolicy.org/oklahoma-poverty-rate-down-still-not-perfect-oklahoman-august-26-2008
I agree, it looks bad. But to be fair, we’re only seeing one side of the story and I learned a long time ago, there’s actually three sides to every story… my side, your side and what really happened.
Soooo, without more info, I can’t condemn someone for doing what they thought was right, yet.